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The Jukebox Rebel
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No and this seems to be a problem for the snp yes camp, they want to split the UK up, so they have to prove that we would be better off doing that, something they have singularly failed to do and i doubt they can.

 

anything they come out with is positive and god forbid they should be proved wrong as that's just negative thinking.... no it just means they are wrong :thumbsup2:

 

they live in some dream world where they will get anything they ask for when we know that is rubbish as they just don't know but are willing to take us all down to prove it.

 

Can you prove that Scotland will be better off, or at least no worse off, if we vote to remain in the UK? Of course you can't. No one can. Nor can anyone prove, conclusively, at this point in time, that Scotland would definitely be better off by going it alone. Anyone looking at the debate solely in terms of 'will I be better off?' is looking at it the wrong way, because it is a question neither side can answer for certain.

 

The real issue is whether people believe it is right that their country is managed by a government they have elected themselves, or by a government chosen by the electorate of England. I think there is ample evidence available to support the case for independence; people now need to ask themselves whether it is morally the right thing to do.

 

If any group in the debate are living in a 'dream world' it is the unionists. Their mantra seems to be 'everything is wonderful', when it quite patently is not. I think it says a lot that they have yet to say what they can promise Scotland in the even of a no vote. I don't see why the onus should be solely on the yes camp to provide all the answers, because the UK, for me, simply is not working. And I don't just mean for Scotland.

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Largely down to the fact that London has a different agenda and a different outlook. Continually preoccupied with some sort of notion that it should e some sort of world superpower. Frankly, Scotland has no business in the middle east as far as I'm concerned. Any low key support or aid that is required from Scotland in that region should be via the United Nations only.

 

For what it's worth, if I thought that Scotland's presence in the union would result in an improvement in the lives of impoverished people elsewhere in the UK then I doubt I would favour independence. But since the oil was discovered the gap between rich and poor has actually widened, and quite dramatically.

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Can you prove that Scotland will be better off, or at least no worse off, if we vote to remain in the UK? Of course you can't. No one can. Nor can anyone prove, conclusively, at this point in time, that Scotland would definitely be better off by going it alone. Anyone looking at the debate solely in terms of 'will I be better off?' is looking at it the wrong way, because it is a question neither side can answer for certain.

 

well actually the snp can put there economic plans out and costings for those plans but those that they do wont work and the rest they wont put out because they know they wont work

 

The real issue is whether people believe it is right that their country is managed by a government they have elected themselves, or by a government chosen by the electorate of England. I think there is ample evidence available to support the case for independence; people now need to ask themselves whether it is morally the right thing to do.

 

less than a third of those on the electoral roll voted for the snp but we still got them so whats your point

 

If any group in the debate are living in a 'dream world' it is the unionists. Their mantra seems to be 'everything is wonderful', when it quite patently is not. I think it says a lot that they have yet to say what they can promise Scotland in the even of a no vote. I don't see why the onus should be solely on the yes camp to provide all the answers, because the UK, for me, simply is not working. And I don't just mean for Scotland.

 

no its is just better than what the snp are offering.

 

we are doing the best we can with what we have at the moment.

 

 

oh and those mps in Westminster that you despise would be moving into holyrood.

 

one set of politicians are the same as the rest so what's the point and you would swap Westminster for Brussels, that's if they even let us in

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oh and those mps in Westminster that you despise would be moving into holyrood.

 

At the last general election 16.7% of Scots voted for the Conservatives yet they won and became our ultimate governing body in all the areas which are vital to Scottish prosperity. That's a farcical situation.

 

Yes, they'd have MP's at Holyrood. And quite right too in a democratic and free society. But at least then they'd be more fairly represented and would only account for 1 in 6, thus being unable to inflict policies onto Scotland which are rooted within a London agenda.

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Given where you live, I'm intrigued by your no stance.

 

Norway has a population less than Scotland and has very similar oil resources. The Norwegian government set up an oil fund with the profits from that industry that is in the hundreds of millions.

 

By contrast, Scotland, due to being part of an outdated union, has the square root of hee-haw to show for our oil profits while the UK government uses the cash to fund (amongst other things) weapons of mass destruction and illegal wars.

 

Norway had nothing before the oil, small fishing industry only, but they got in at the start and basically set the standard with a very very low population back in the 60's where they needed massive foreign investment (Infrustructure and labour) to start, and could tax what they wanted as 36% taxed wages was still more in the pocket of what they had previosly.

Although Norway is very wealthy it doesnt invest its money in anything merely hordes it, we have the worst level of road maintenance and building of anywhere in Europe (Including Romania and Albania), 95% of all income is through oil, there is very little else, so when it does go, or the price dramatically drops (When the Alaska field opens) Norway is in the poo,

We have a weird situation where if you are in debt to the bank, the interest you owe is deducted against your tax, so you pay less tax, but the repayments on that are bigger than the tax bill would be, but people think they are fiddling the tax man and the government, but the government and the unions own ALL the banks.

We are being braced for inflation to rise to double figures due to the country hyper inflating itself through the cost of living.

Cost of living is high, wages come up, house prices rise due to this, cost of living comes up, wages increase and so on.

Norway lost 23% of parts manufactured for the oil industry last year alone due to the price, Statoil (The Government owned Oil Giant) has just moved 7000 jobs abroad, as have AKER and Abel, thats 20000 jobs been moved abroad in 1 year alone for a small country, but hey doesn't matter get laid off the state pays 90% of my wage for 18 months, so no need to find a job.

We have a fantastic oil fund that guarantees us a pension based on our 5 best years (Tax Free), and we can go on 80% from 62, oh wait the pension fund is dry were working to 70 from now with an average over the last 15 years of your wage dropping down every 5 years.

 

Its not all that rosy here

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At the last general election 16.7% of Scots voted for the Conservatives yet they won and became our ultimate governing body in all the areas which are vital to Scottish prosperity. That's a farcical situation.

 

Yes, they'd have MP's at Holyrood. And quite right too in a democratic and free society. But at least then they'd be more fairly represented and would only account for 1 in 6, thus being unable to inflict policies onto Scotland which are rooted within a London agenda.

 

eh? that vote was for the whole of the uk, if some scottish people cant see past labour or the snp thats there fault, oh and if you want to get it right it was 16.7% of Scots in scotland that bothered to vote and like i said only 900.000 voted for the snp out of a pop of 5 mil +

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Largely down to the fact that London has a different agenda and a different outlook. Continually preoccupied with some sort of notion that it should e some sort of world superpower. Frankly, Scotland has no business in the middle east as far as I'm concerned. Any low key support or aid that is required from Scotland in that region should be via the United Nations only.

 

Lets remember that the Population of London is nearly twice that of Scotland, policies will always look to favor the majority.

Lets assume we get Independence, Edinburgh will set the policy, maybe to the detriment to the islands, or with the SNP at the helm maybe at the determent to Glasgow, should we then ask for a referendum for Glasgow and Edinburgh to break away from the Gaelic portion of the country, after all we must be subsidizing them with our industry.

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Who fancies the following

 

36% income tax on basic

50% income tax on overtime

£11 a pint (Due to 80% tax)

£5 a pint of milk & loaf of bread

£25 a hospital visit

£2.50 every toll road (almost all roads) journey (Most people pay 3 or 4 times a day)

£1.70 a litre of our own produced fuel

£400 a year road tax

£700 a year council tax (If you own your own house) to be paid in a single chunk

£200 a month for Hydro electricity (No Gas we have to sell it)

£20 a prescription item (Even for kids)

 

Thats the "Norway Model" that uncle Alex wants to adopt, yes some of the wages are better here but a Mechanic will earn around £36,000 basic, Overtime is very strictly controlled by the government and unions, night shift apart from off shore is basically illegal for non essential positions (Nurses etc), back shift allowance is 7%

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Who fancies the following

 

36% income tax on basic

50% income tax on overtime

£11 a pint (Due to 80% tax)

£5 a pint of milk & loaf of bread

£25 a hospital visit

£2.50 every toll road (almost all roads) journey (Most people pay 3 or 4 times a day)

£1.70 a litre of our own produced fuel

£400 a year road tax

£700 a year council tax (If you own your own house) to be paid in a single chunk

£200 a month for Hydro electricity (No Gas we have to sell it)

£20 a prescription item (Even for kids)

 

Thats the "Norway Model" that uncle Alex wants to adopt, yes some of the wages are better here but a Mechanic will earn around £36,000 basic, Overtime is very strictly controlled by the government and unions, night shift apart from off shore is basically illegal for non essential positions (Nurses etc), back shift allowance is 7%

 

i knew it was expensive, when i was there in 87 and 88 it was around £5-£6 a pint if i remember rightly and you needed a bank loan for coffee.

Edited by jaggybunnet
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i knew it was expensive, when i was there in 87 and 88 it was around £5-£6 a pint if i remember rightly and you needed a bank loan for coffee.

 

Norway may be classed as one of the richest countries around but it has the highest level of personnel debt of anywhere in europe, hey you can even take a mortgage out on your kids name

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oh and those mps in Westminster that you despise would be moving into holyrood.

 

one set of politicians are the same as the rest so what's the point and you would swap Westminster for Brussels, that's if they even let us in

 

Which of the SNP's economic plans won't work exactly and why? Given that I am not a member of the SNP I am not au fait with the finer details of their economic strategy. However, you are maing the assumption that the SNP would automatically be in power post-independence, which, outwith an inital period prior to a general election, is anything but guaranteed.

 

IIRC, over 40% of the electorate voted SNP in 2011. I could be wrong, however. The point I was making was that the SNP were the party that most of those who voted voted for and were duly elected. As far as UK is concerned we only get the government the majority of us vote for if England happens to concur. That isn't a dig at England, but it is an unavoidable consequence of being locked in a union with a much larger partner who, politically, by and large, sees things differently. To me, that is not, in effect, democracy.

 

The EU arrangement is not the same as that of the United Kingdom, for many reasons. For one - just off the top of my head because it is getting late - the EU does not dictate foreign policy to its member states. Thus, we would not become embroiled in obsenities like the Iraq war at the behest of Brussels.

 

Lets remember that the Population of London is nearly twice that of Scotland, policies will always look to favor the majority.

Lets assume we get Independence, Edinburgh will set the policy, maybe to the detriment to the islands, or with the SNP at the helm maybe at the determent to Glasgow, should we then ask for a referendum for Glasgow and Edinburgh to break away from the Gaelic portion of the country, after all we must be subsidizing them with our industry.

 

I would say the islands and other portions of Scotland outside the central belt stand more chance of having their voices heard in a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh than they do in a UK parliament in Westminster, many of whose members would struggle even to identify them on a map.

 

Who fancies the following

 

36% income tax on basic

50% income tax on overtime

£11 a pint (Due to 80% tax)

£5 a pint of milk & loaf of bread

£25 a hospital visit

£2.50 every toll road (almost all roads) journey (Most people pay 3 or 4 times a day)

£1.70 a litre of our own produced fuel

£400 a year road tax

£700 a year council tax (If you own your own house) to be paid in a single chunk

£200 a month for Hydro electricity (No Gas we have to sell it)

£20 a prescription item (Even for kids)

 

Thats the "Norway Model" that uncle Alex wants to adopt, yes some of the wages are better here but a Mechanic will earn around £36,000 basic, Overtime is very strictly controlled by the government and unions, night shift apart from off shore is basically illegal for non essential positions (Nurses etc), back shift allowance is 7%

 

Does he? I am not aware of him ever saying that.

 

What is Norway's record like with regards to things like health, unemployment, life expectancy and crime? How does Stavanger compare with Glasgow as a place to live and work? I am guessing pretty well, considering you have been over there, what, ten years?

 

Again, we come back to the politics of the self. For years the UK has been run by governments espousing neo-liberal economics, intended to put disposable cash into people's pockets. Spend, spend, spend. Aye, it was great, ten years ago, seeing all those nice restaurants and posh shops selling shiny things popping up around Glasgow. It is a pity many of them have gone now. It is an even bigger pity when you walk down Dumbarton Road in Partick and ever other shop is a pay day loan shop, a charity shop or a bookies. There is a shop in Anniesland that pays people cash to sell their clothes. That's like something out of Dickens! If the price of higher taxes means that we circumvent that kind of situation then sign me up, even if it means sticking with my old mobile 'phone for another year or so.

Edited by Guy Incognito
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Given the independence would bring powers over (i) the economy (ii) foreign policy & (iii) defence under the control of Edinburgh, it would be interesting to look at the 'achievements' of a Better Together approach over the last ten years:

 

(i) Darling's economic mess, a failed austerity response and retirement age for those of us in the public sector rising from 60 to 68.

(ii) Iraq, Afghanistan... need I say more

(iii) Aircraft carriers without aircraft. Twenty five billion on Trident MkII

 

I can see why Better Together want to concentrate on creating worries through scare stories about independence rather than defend their own position. A once in a lifetime opportunity to get rid of the Tories and people are worried.

 

If you want to make this about football - why should Scotland have an 'international' football team when its people see see it in the same league as Humberside or Cornwall - a region of Great Britain!!

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Aye, important things Avatars. Quite happy with that now, and name. Sorted for Football, Music and Politics. John Lambie, John Peel and Alex Salmond. THEE three greats.

 

Mind you, I didn't consider that I'd get dragged into an online episode of Scotland Tonight. That'll learn me.

 

Guy - if this is you Incognito I'd hate to see you in the headlines. Fantastic posts, clear, concise and insightful. Masters degree? Tommy Sheridan undercover? (JOKING! JOKING!)

 

And I hate to be on the other team from Norge / jaggy, ffs, it just feels wrong. I mean, I LOVE Shaggy and Jack.

 

Yes or no, "We're a' Jock Tamson's Bairns"

 

Now, excuse me while I go for a cup of tea and roll up my sleeves...

Edited by The Jukebox Rebel
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For what it's worth, if I thought that Scotland's presence in the union would result in an improvement in the lives of impoverished people elsewhere in the UK then I doubt I would favour independence. But since the oil was discovered the gap between rich and poor has actually widened, and quite dramatically.

A very good point. Say no to selfish politics. The United Kingdom now has the fourth worst rich/poor divide in the western world. Not only is that morally wrong, it's an own goal for economic growth.

 

 

eh? that vote was for the whole of the uk

??? This seems a bit of a non point as you're agreeing with me. I was talking about the UK. That’s why I said “in the last general election”. Common parlance of the land is that general election means House of Commons. Had I been referring to Holyrood I’d have used the term “Scottish Parliamentary election”.

 

if some scottish people cant see past labour or the snp thats there fault

No. That’s their democratic right under the UK laws of the land which you hold so dearly.

 

if you want to get it right it was 16.7% of Scots in scotland that bothered to vote

Speaking as a pedant, I cede this point to you, so I'll rewrite... Of all votes cast in the 2010 General Election by the Scottish electorate, only 16.7% were for the Conservative Party.

 

only 900.000 voted for the snp out of a pop of 5 mil +

We all know you're making mischief with figures here. Only 4 million are registered to vote in the first place. Turnout 65% leaves 2.6 million who actually voted. By and large non voters affect all parties proportionately.

 

One thing that I noticed from your, frankly rather negative and unproductive, response was that you shyed away from actually addressing the point that I made. So I will put it to you directly: "How can you justify continuing with a democratic system for Scotland that returns a controlling government which only garnered 16.7 of the relevant vote?"

 

 

Lets remember that the Population of London is nearly twice that of Scotland, policies will always look to favor the majority.

Agreed. That's a yes then?

 

Lets assume we get Independence, Edinburgh will set the policy, maybe to the detriment to the islands, or with the SNP at the helm maybe at the determent to Glasgow, should we then ask for a referendum for Glasgow and Edinburgh to break away from the Gaelic portion of the country, after all we must be subsidizing them with our industry.

Have you ever considered writing science fiction Norge? You have a wild and vivid imagination. Why on Earth would the SNP make discriminatory policies against anyone in Scotland? From Kirkwall to Kirkcudbright, everyone's fairly represented at Holyrood. Gaelic is positively encouraged at every turn by the SNP. The party lead the way in this regard, so I don't understand your point at all here. Every entry point in the country welcomes you in both English and Gaelic. The rising success of BBC Alba is a clear indication that we are making good effort and Gaelic remains alive and well. It's future has never been so bright for many a year. You'll need to enlighten me further on how the SNP plan to discriminate against Glasgow. It's sure to be a hoot!

 

Who fancies the following

36% income tax on basic

50% income tax on overtime

£11 a pint (Due to 80% tax)

£5 a pint of milk & loaf of bread

£25 a hospital visit

£2.50 every toll road (almost all roads) journey (Most people pay 3 or 4 times a day)

£1.70 a litre of our own produced fuel

£400 a year road tax

£700 a year council tax (If you own your own house) to be paid in a single chunk

£200 a month for Hydro electricity (No Gas we have to sell it)

£20 a prescription item (Even for kids)

Thats the "Norway Model" that uncle Alex wants to adopt, yes some of the wages are better here but a Mechanic will earn around £36,000 basic, Overtime is very strictly controlled by the government and unions, night shift apart from off shore is basically illegal for non essential positions (Nurses etc), back shift allowance is 7%

Your insight into Norway from the personal is very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to share it. It must be frustrating for you to hear about what the facts say:

 

The Legatum Prosperity Index:

The Legatum Prosperity Index is an annual ranking, developed by the Legatum Institute, of 142 countries. The ranking is based on a variety of factors including wealth, economic growth, personal well-being, and quality of life. Norway has topped the list in the last three reports; those of 2010, 2011 and 2012.

 

Forbes:

Forbes rank Norway #4 in their list The World's richest countries, which compare countries by GDP.

 

United Nations Development Programme lists the Top 20 countries in the world to live:

1. Norway

2. Australia

3. Iceland

4. Canada

5. Ireland

6. Netherlands

7. Sweden

8. France

9. Switzerland

10. Japan

11. Luxembourg

12. Finland

13. United States

14. Austria

15. Spain

16. Denmark

17. Belgium

18. Italy

19. Liechtenstein

20. New Zealand

 

Your Oil Fund, as of March 31st 2013 has a total value of $712.7 billion. That's one percent of global equity markets!!!

 

If the Norwegian working and middle classes are feeling the pinch then why don't you all get together in that world famous democracy and campaign to have some of it released?

 

As for Uncle Alex adopting your "model". Eh? Where did you read that? I think it's the size of your Oil Fund that he's more interested in. And, despite not having access to such unimaginable resources (for now!!!) he's been able to work wonders on a shoestring budget. From the Scottish Borders to the Islands to the Central Belt no-one here pays anything for prescriptions.

 

If I was you Norge, I'd vote Yes for an independent Scotland... and get on the first boat back home if we win.

 

Uncle Alex will welcome you back with open arms. And unlike your Jens Stoltenberg, he'll no charge you 'ony hing to drive up and doon the M8, or if ye get sick...

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Does he? I am not aware of him ever saying that.

 

What is Norway's record like with regards to things like health, unemployment, life expectancy and crime? How does Stavanger compare with Glasgow as a place to live and work? I am guessing pretty well, considering you have been over there, what, ten years?

 

Again, we come back to the politics of the self. For years the UK has been run by governments espousing neo-liberal economics, intended to put disposable cash into people's pockets. Spend, spend, spend. Aye, it was great, ten years ago, seeing all those nice restaurants and posh shops selling shiny things popping up around Glasgow. It is a pity many of them have gone now. It is an even bigger pity when you walk down Dumbarton Road in Partick and ever other shop is a pay day loan shop, a charity shop or a bookies. There is a shop in Anniesland that pays people cash to sell their clothes. That's like something out of Dickens! If the price of higher taxes means that we circumvent that kind of situation then sign me up, even if it means sticking with my old mobile 'phone for another year or so.

 

Salmond has been in the press over here on lots of occassions, on the Norway model for economy and drink prices (I posted this once before here, where he basically said Scots were drunk and the price hike would stop it, it doesn't people drink at home on illicit or smuggled booze and turn up in town smashed at 11)

 

Norways Crime record has started to increase dramatically in the last 5 years as has the unemployment (From 0.2% in Stavanger to 3.2% in 5 years).

 

Yes its a nice place to live and safer, cleaner and easier to get a job than Glasgow, but the Norway Model won't work in Scotland our cultures are way too different. Norway had nothing before the oil (80% unemployment in Stavanger), so when the wages started but were getting taxed no one noticed as it was way better than what they had.

 

Norwegians may complain but they will never demo or riot, so when the electricity price doubled 8 years ago (Yes Doubled due to them seeling too much and having to buy it back), people maned over a coffee or made a comment in the paper but nothing happened.

The same went with the road tolls (On all roads going to and from the city & tunnels & motorways) 5 years ago you paid 6NOK in peak times, at other times it was free, Now we are paying 30 NOK all the time and there are more tolls than ever, and if you haven't paid up front via a brick, you have 12 hours to pay it at the local esso station or its 2030NOK (Over £200). People moan at work but no one demo's. Its the culture they are very placid they moan but accept things.

 

The spend spend spend culture was worldwide, not just Scotland and is still going on (We have the oil fund, the state will protect etc etc)

 

Norway has effectively been Independent for over 100 years, when it effectively meant putting a new king on the throne and changing your flag, Scotland will have so much more to do with so much more cost.

 

Armed forces and equipment, wheres the money coming from?? Or we going to put the Waverly to sea?? Thats Billions that are needed.

Currency we won't get in the Euro to start (although i would advise against ever entering it) so we need to print our own currency Millions of pounds in expenditure

Passports 3 million people will need a new passport

Stamps

Government stationery...... Millions

 

These are costs that are absorbed over time on a country that is running, but this will need to come in towards the first few years.

 

I've said before I'm not anti independence but I have still to see the REAL facts that prove Scotland will be better, and the relying on oil is very narrow thinking, there isn't enough jobs in oil in Scotland to provide for all, we have massive unemployment and believing the oil (Plus the already failed oil tax) will be a magic cure is pie in the sky

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A very good point. Say no to selfish politics. The United Kingdom now has the fourth worst rich/poor divide in the western world. Not only is that morally wrong, it's an own goal for economic growth.

 

 

 

??? This seems a bit of a non point as you're agreeing with me. I was talking about the UK. That’s why I said “in the last general election”. Common parlance of the land is that general election means House of Commons. Had I been referring to Holyrood I’d have used the term “Scottish Parliamentary election”.

 

 

No. That’s their democratic right under the UK laws of the land which you hold so dearly.

 

 

Speaking as a pedant, I cede this point to you, so I'll rewrite... Of all votes cast in the 2010 General Election by the Scottish electorate, only 16.7% were for the Conservative Party.

 

 

We all know you're making mischief with figures here. Only 4 million are registered to vote in the first place. Turnout 65% leaves 2.6 million who actually voted. By and large non voters affect all parties proportionately.

 

One thing that I noticed from your, frankly rather negative and unproductive, response was that you shyed away from actually addressing the point that I made. So I will put it to you directly: "How can you justify continuing with a democratic system for Scotland that returns a controlling government which only garnered 16.7 of the relevant vote?"

 

 

 

Agreed. That's a yes then?

 

 

Have you ever considered writing science fiction Norge? You have a wild and vivid imagination. Why on Earth would the SNP make discriminatory policies against anyone in Scotland? From Kirkwall to Kirkcudbright, everyone's fairly represented at Holyrood. Gaelic is positively encouraged at every turn by the SNP. The party lead the way in this regard, so I don't understand your point at all here. Every entry point in the country welcomes you in both English and Gaelic. The rising success of BBC Alba is a clear indication that we are making good effort and Gaelic remains alive and well. It's future has never been so bright for many a year. You'll need to enlighten me further on how the SNP plan to discriminate against Glasgow. It's sure to be a hoot!

 

 

Your insight into Norway from the personal is very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to share it. It must be frustrating for you to hear about what the facts say:

 

The Legatum Prosperity Index:

The Legatum Prosperity Index is an annual ranking, developed by the Legatum Institute, of 142 countries. The ranking is based on a variety of factors including wealth, economic growth, personal well-being, and quality of life. Norway has topped the list in the last three reports; those of 2010, 2011 and 2012.

 

Forbes:

Forbes rank Norway #4 in their list The World's richest countries, which compare countries by GDP.

 

United Nations Development Programme lists the Top 20 countries in the world to live:

1. Norway

2. Australia

3. Iceland

4. Canada

5. Ireland

6. Netherlands

7. Sweden

8. France

9. Switzerland

10. Japan

11. Luxembourg

12. Finland

13. United States

14. Austria

15. Spain

16. Denmark

17. Belgium

18. Italy

19. Liechtenstein

20. New Zealand

 

Your Oil Fund, as of March 31st 2013 has a total value of $712.7 billion. That's one percent of global equity markets!!!

 

If the Norwegian working and middle classes are feeling the pinch then why don't you all get together in that world famous democracy and campaign to have some of it released?

 

As for Uncle Alex adopting your "model". Eh? Where did you read that? I think it's the size of your Oil Fund that he's more interested in. And, despite not having access to such unimaginable resources (for now!!!) he's been able to work wonders on a shoestring budget. From the Scottish Borders to the Islands to the Central Belt no-one here pays anything for prescriptions.

 

If I was you Norge, I'd vote Yes for an independent Scotland... and get on the first boat back home if we win.

 

Uncle Alex will welcome you back with open arms. And unlike your Jens Stoltenberg, he'll no charge you 'ony hing to drive up and doon the M8, or if ye get sick...

 

Different list from what I saw

 

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/55555555555

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A very good point. Say no to selfish politics. The United Kingdom now has the fourth worst rich/poor divide in the western world. Not only is that morally wrong, it's an own goal for economic growth.

 

 

 

??? This seems a bit of a non point as you're agreeing with me. I was talking about the UK. That’s why I said “in the last general election”. Common parlance of the land is that general election means House of Commons. Had I been referring to Holyrood I’d have used the term “Scottish Parliamentary election”.

 

Conservatives got 36.1% of the uk vote (59% as a coalition)which scotland is part of last time i looked while the snp only got 1.7, that is my point

 

the snp got 31 % of scotland elections vote so does that mean the don't represent Scotland

 

No. That’s their democratic right under the UK laws of the land which you hold so dearly.

 

 

Speaking as a pedant, I cede this point to you, so I'll rewrite... Of all votes cast in the 2010 General Election by the Scottish electorate, only 16.7% were for the Conservative Party.

 

see above

 

We all know you're making mischief with figures here. Only 4 million are registered to vote in the first place. Turnout 65% leaves 2.6 million who actually voted. By and large non voters affect all parties proportionately.

 

snp got in only because they had a strop with labour it was a protest vote nothing else.

 

One thing that I noticed from your, frankly rather negative and unproductive, response was that you shyed away from actually addressing the point that I made. So I will put it to you directly: "How can you justify continuing with a democratic system for Scotland that returns a controlling government which only garnered 16.7 of the relevant vote?"

 

yes because we are part of the UK where snp only get 1.7% of the vote

 

 

Agreed. That's a yes then?

 

 

Have you ever considered writing science fiction Norge? You have a wild and vivid imagination. Why on Earth would the SNP make discriminatory policies against anyone in Scotland? From Kirkwall to Kirkcudbright, everyone's fairly represented at Holyrood. Gaelic is positively encouraged at every turn by the SNP. The party lead the way in this regard, so I don't understand your point at all here. Every entry point in the country welcomes you in both English and Gaelic. The rising success of BBC Alba is a clear indication that we are making good effort and Gaelic remains alive and well. It's future has never been so bright for many a year. You'll need to enlighten me further on how the SNP plan to discriminate against Glasgow. It's sure to be a hoot!

 

 

Your insight into Norway from the personal is very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to share it. It must be frustrating for you to hear about what the facts say:

 

The Legatum Prosperity Index:

The Legatum Prosperity Index is an annual ranking, developed by the Legatum Institute, of 142 countries. The ranking is based on a variety of factors including wealth, economic growth, personal well-being, and quality of life. Norway has topped the list in the last three reports; those of 2010, 2011 and 2012.

 

Forbes:

Forbes rank Norway #4 in their list The World's richest countries, which compare countries by GDP.

 

United Nations Development Programme lists the Top 20 countries in the world to live:

1. Norway

2. Australia

3. Iceland

4. Canada

5. Ireland

6. Netherlands

7. Sweden

8. France

9. Switzerland

10. Japan

11. Luxembourg

12. Finland

13. United States

14. Austria

15. Spain

16. Denmark

17. Belgium

18. Italy

19. Liechtenstein

20. New Zealand

 

Your Oil Fund, as of March 31st 2013 has a total value of $712.7 billion. That's one percent of global equity markets!!!

 

If the Norwegian working and middle classes are feeling the pinch then why don't you all get together in that world famous democracy and campaign to have some of it released?

 

As for Uncle Alex adopting your "model". Eh? Where did you read that? I think it's the size of your Oil Fund that he's more interested in. And, despite not having access to such unimaginable resources (for now!!!) he's been able to work wonders on a shoestring budget. From the Scottish Borders to the Islands to the Central Belt no-one here pays anything for prescriptions.

 

If I was you Norge, I'd vote Yes for an independent Scotland... and get on the first boat back home if we win.

 

Uncle Alex will welcome you back with open arms. And unlike your Jens Stoltenberg, he'll no charge you 'ony hing to drive up and doon the M8, or if ye get sick...

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Interesting to hear about Norway. It's currently the shining light the SNP are currently looking towards. Before it was Ireland. Then it was Iceland. Where will it be next? Maybe they will move onto Sweden but as with all countries they have negatives and positives and their own set of issues they need to deal with.

 

If you want to change something such as splitting a country up then you need to state what are the benefits but at the moment it's all soundbites, mottos and then reverse questions of "can you tell me what will happen if we remain in the UK?"

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Studied politics a long time ago at Uni and am now terminally bored by the subject. Having said that, it is interesting to look back at the road to referendum - some might say it started with the Hamilton by-election, others perhaps Margo MacDonald at Govan whilst others will point to 11 turkeys voting for Xmas and the consequences thereof..

 

Each to their own and each viewpoint will sadly become more and more entrenched in the next 15 months. Whilst I am ambivalent about the whole debate - and the level of debate is sadly pitiful (hypocrisy alert!! as I am adding to it! :frantic: ) there are perhaps some concerning developments developing as the day of reckoning approaches.

 

The "Yes" campaign seems to have a "pick-and-mix" approach to Independence - keep the pound and no to the Euro, yet remain in the European Union as of right with no need to re-apply, get rid of nuclear bases but remain in NATO and be subject to NATO policy on the matter presumably - keep the Royal Family ........................... the list of muddled semi-autonomy goes on and on - some of it obviously aimed at the populist wing of general opinion as is the right of any political movement.

 

However the sum total of the "No" campaign seems to be precisely that.........."No" - nothing else just "No"- which is no argument at all. Better Together? :happy3: has become a mantra and a meaningless slogan - not helped by the appearance of goons like Cameron and the gruesome sight of Darling being lauded by the blue rinse zombies at their recent conference - very unconvincing.

 

Thank the Lord we have the real world of football to keep us sane over the next year or so as the virtual reality that is Scottish Politics is about to become very over-heated indeed. :music:

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Studied politics a long time ago at Uni and am now terminally bored by the subject. Having said that, it is interesting to look back at the road to referendum - some might say it started with the Hamilton by-election, others perhaps Margo MacDonald at Govan whilst others will point to 11 turkeys voting for Xmas and the consequences thereof..

 

Each to their own and each viewpoint will sadly become more and more entrenched in the next 15 months. Whilst I am ambivalent about the whole debate - and the level of debate is sadly pitiful (hypocrisy alert!! as I am adding to it! :frantic: ) there are perhaps some concerning developments developing as the day of reckoning approaches.

 

The "Yes" campaign seems to have a "pick-and-mix" approach to Independence - keep the pound and no to the Euro, yet remain in the European Union as of right with no need to re-apply, get rid of nuclear bases but remain in NATO and be subject to NATO policy on the matter presumably - keep the Royal Family ........................... the list of muddled semi-autonomy goes on and on - some of it obviously aimed at the populist wing of general opinion as is the right of any political movement.

 

This is exactly it, cherry pick what suits and leave what doesn't, Scotland will either be stand alone, with own armed forces, currency, own monarchy?? or it will stay in the UK with the shared items it already has.

 

However the sum total of the "No" campaign seems to be precisely that.........."No" - nothing else just "No"- which is no argument at all. Better Together? :happy3: has become a mantra and a meaningless slogan - not helped by the appearance of goons like Cameron and the gruesome sight of Darling being lauded by the blue rinse zombies at their recent conference - very unconvincing.

 

Totally agree here, but maybe the plan is to let the YES campaign hang itself with the muddled answers before they show how better it may be

 

Thank the Lord we have the real world of football to keep us sane over the next year or so as the virtual reality that is Scottish Politics is about to become very over-heated indeed. :music:

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Aye, important things Avatars. Quite happy with that now, and name. Sorted for Football, Music and Politics. John Lambie, John Peel and Alex Salmond. THEE three greats.

 

Mind you, I didn't consider that I'd get dragged into an online episode of Scotland Tonight. That'll learn me.

 

Guy - if this is you Incognito I'd hate to see you in the headlines. Fantastic posts, clear, concise and insightful. Masters degree? Tommy Sheridan undercover? (JOKING! JOKING!)

 

And I hate to be on the other team from Norge / jaggy, ffs, it just feels wrong. I mean, I LOVE Shaggy and Jack.

 

Yes or no, "We're a' Jock Tamson's Bairns"

 

Now, excuse me while I go for a cup of tea and roll up my sleeves...

 

Aw shucks. :blush:

 

No, I am not Tommy Sheridan, although I wish I had his sex life. On second thoughts, maybe not.

 

Norge, thank you for your reply. I have to get back to work soon but I will reply to you properly when I get the chance.

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