Jump to content

One Word Post - Should Scotland Be An Independent Country? Yes Or No.


The Jukebox Rebel
 Share

Independence Poll  

126 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?

    • Yes
      93
    • No
      33


Recommended Posts

-- You don't actually want the answers. The UK has no real answer to it's terrible state, other than to continue to increase the gap between the rich and the poor.

 

No I do want answers as do 100's of companies like mine that export from Scotland, for us we need to know what currency, tax and laws we will be trading with and also how steady that currency is.

I don't know if I am buying parts next year in pounds, euro's, dollars, or salmonds.... or how the cost of raw material (Steel etc) will be linked to that, this is causing companies like mine to be very hesitant to sign any agreements for long term, but less reluctant with companies south of the border, which is giving other companies an advantage over Scottish ones whilst the uncertainty reigns and I know my company is not the only one with this issue.

Several of the companies I deal with have genuine fears for what they will do if a Yes vote comes through due to the majority of their work being in the defense sector, and they don't believe a Scottish defense force will have the same level of spend as a UK one.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No I do want answers as do 100's of companies like mine that export from Scotland, for us we need to know what currency, tax and laws we will be trading with and also how steady that currency is.

I don't know if I am buying parts next year in pounds, euro's, dollars, or salmonds.... or how the cost of raw material (Steel etc) will be linked to that, this is causing companies like mine to be very hesitant to sign any agreements for long term, but less reluctant with companies south of the border, which is giving other companies an advantage over Scottish ones whilst the uncertainty reigns and I know my company is not the only one with this issue.

Several of the companies I deal with have genuine fears for what they will do if a Yes vote comes through due to the majority of their work being in the defense sector, and they don't believe a Scottish defense force will have the same level of spend as a UK one.

 

Many companies in Scotland, presumably with similar issues to yours, are most firmly in favour of Scottish independence and the increased opportunities that it will bring. No sign of any hesitancy from them, and no suggestion that they are being put at a disadvantage while uncertainty reigns. Are UK companies at a disadvantage because of the uncertainty of continued EU membership? If not, then why is Scotland uniquely affected by a referendum?

 

As for Scottish defence force not having the same level of spend, I should certainly hope not! There are much better things to spend money on. If your company is dependent on British warmongering, then I'm sorry, and I'd hope that it would rise to the challenge of diversifying, as companies have always had to do to survive in any economic climate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly. Independence would have to mewn something, and nailing the colours to the republican democratic mast would have really helped sway me...

 

Do you not think that voting Yes might be one step towards a republic?

 

There are republican movements (or republican people, anyway) out there who also favour a Yes vote.

 

Agreed. In fact the possibility of that referendum is one of the reasons I'm distinctly swaying in my 'no' vote, albeit I'm not convinced by the SNP's certainties.

 

As part of 'Westminster', though, Scotland can influence the outcome of the next parliament and therefore the likelihood of such a referendum taking place. Also the idea of our voice being 'swamped' democratically as part of a union larger than Scotland suggests that EU membership would be worse in any case, either as part of the UK or as an independent country. This is not a view to which I subscribe, but I do understand it.

 

Not necessarily. If we were a country within our own right within the EU - as opposed to a region of the UK like we are now , as far as the EU is concerned - then we would be entitled to greater representation. Finland and Slovakia, both similarly sized countries to Scotland, are EU members and elect 12 or 13 MEPs. Scotland currently elects only 6.

 

So while we might be a member of a much larger union in the EU (depending on which scare story you believe) by being independent we would at least have a louder voice with which to argue for our best interests.

 

You don't actually want the answers. The UK has no real answer to it's terrible state, other than to continue to increase the gap between the rich and the poor.

 

Nail on the head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you not think that voting Yes might be one step towards a republic?

 

There are republican movements (or republican people, anyway) out there who also favour a Yes vote.

It might be, it might not. My point was that it's an issue which would have helped sway me. There are monarchists in favour of independence too (as well as republicans against...)

 

 

Not necessarily. If we were a country within our own right within the EU - as opposed to a region of the UK like we are now , as far as the EU is concerned - then we would be entitled to greater representation. Finland and Slovakia, both similarly sized countries to Scotland, are EU members and elect 12 or 13 MEPs. Scotland currently elects only 6.

 

So while we might be a member of a much larger union in the EU (depending on which scare story you believe) by being independent we would at least have a louder voice with which to argue for our best interests.

I take the point about larger representation, but my argument wasn't directly related to that. It was responding to the point made about EU membership being decided largely by the population of England. I was making the simple point essentially about that being a democratic feature of a Union.(EU or UK). And I understand the argument that says it's better therefore not being part of a Union (EU or UK)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many companies in Scotland, presumably with similar issues to yours, are most firmly in favour of Scottish independence and the increased opportunities that it will bring. No sign of any hesitancy from them, and no suggestion that they are being put at a disadvantage while uncertainty reigns. Are UK companies at a disadvantage because of the uncertainty of continued EU membership? If not, then why is Scotland uniquely affected by a referendum?

 

As for Scottish defence force not having the same level of spend, I should certainly hope not! There are much better things to spend money on. If your company is dependent on British warmongering, then I'm sorry, and I'd hope that it would rise to the challenge of diversifying, as companies have always had to do to survive in any economic climate.

 

Most companies I have spoken to and depending on who has done the poll have fear to certain levels as to how this will effect their business especially those that export, or supply to the defense either directly or indirectly.

 

The UK is not uncertain if it pulls out the EU as it already has its own currency, its currency is tried tested and relatively stable, it already has set its tax laws and its import export legislation is in place, Scotland if independent does not know what currency it will use, if it is a new currency will it be stable, what its tax laws and rates will be and how its import export legislation will be.

 

Currently if I pay 100,000 NOK for a machined part, i know that will be between £9500 to £10000 in the suppliers hand, so allowing for their 20% mark up after costs, labor and raw material they will make roughly £2000 profit per part, if a new currency has a greater fluctuation when we negotiate the price at 100,000 Nok the cost may be 10000 scottish punds per part, removing labor of say 6000, materials of 2000 leaving a 2000 profit per part, 1 month later it could rise to 14000, bonus for the supplier or drop to 4000, but the labour is still 6000 as wages don't drop and rise with the exchange rate, for me buying on paper its not an issue to start as I am still paying the same in NOK, but the cash flow of that company can be seriously affected , and in term de-stabilizing my supply base, will I then potential'y risk delivery of 200 (or more) parts on a 5th 3rd prox deal knowing they could run out of cash a 3rd of the way through the order.

From a supply chain point of view apart from quality, time and cost we are also looking towards stability, not only in the company but also in the country and the currency.

 

Like it or not the MoD creates thousands of jobs in Scotland in the manufacturing industry directly, plus thousands more who support those companies either suppliers, down to the local news agent and pub near these factories, to believe that Scotland or any other country can live without a military is pure fantasy.

My company (Or the branch I work for) is in oil not defense, but when looking for good machine shops we look to those that are in aviation as their QMS and controls are better, plus if they have been audited by one of the big defense companies they will comply with our requirements.

 

Norway spends approx $7.5 billion per year (Not including national service) with a population of 5 million has a standing army of 27000

United Kingdom spends approx £47 billion with a population of 63 million has a standing army of 200,000

So the UK spends less per head capita than a neutral country like Norway, and Norway has more full time troops per head capita than the UK, and thats before you add the national service which is compulsory for all males for 19 months

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Not necessarily. If we were a country within our own right within the EU - as opposed to a region of the UK like we are now , as far as the EU is concerned - then we would be entitled to greater representation. Finland and Slovakia, both similarly sized countries to Scotland, are EU members and elect 12 or 13 MEPs. Scotland currently elects only 6.

 

So while we might be a member of a much larger union in the EU (depending on which scare story you believe) by being independent we would at least have a louder voice with which to argue for our best interests.

 

 

The UK which we are part of has 73 seats or 9.3% of the vote

An independent Scotland will have around 11 or 12 seats or 1.5% of the vote

 

We have a larger voice as a union than seperate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The UK which we are part of has 73 seats or 9.3% of the vote

An independent Scotland will have around 11 or 12 seats or 1.5% of the vote

 

We have a larger voice as a union than seperate

 

So wrong. "We" have almost no part of the UK voice, which is predominantly the voice of south-east England, whether you like it or not. What Westminster decides, we have to go with it whether we like it or not. You might say that that is democracy, but it's also democracy for Scottish people to decide that they have had enough of being told what they can and cannot do. Fortunately, unlike regions of other countries, Scotland has the potential to regain it's own independence in the international community. All it will take is for enough people to vote YES, and then your business will deal with it the way all others will deal with it, by looking at the best way to maximise new opportunities. The "separatist" terminology is nonsensical, as companies all over the world will be looking for business opportunities in Scotland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So wrong. "We" have almost no part of the UK voice, which is predominantly the voice of south-east England, whether you like it or not. What Westminster decides, we have to go with it whether we like it or not. You might say that that is democracy, but it's also democracy for Scottish people to decide that they have had enough of being told what they can and cannot do. Fortunately, unlike regions of other countries, Scotland has the potential to regain it's own independence in the international community. All it will take is for enough people to vote YES, and then your business will deal with it the way all others will deal with it, by looking at the best way to maximise new opportunities. The "separatist" terminology is nonsensical, as companies all over the world will be looking for business opportunities in Scotland.

 

Companies will be looking for business opportunities in a country that is stable, cheaper and has the quality required, if that is an independent Scotland it is yet to be shown, and the lack of clarity on tax, currency etc doesn't help

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Companies will be looking for business opportunities in a country that is stable, cheaper and has the quality required, if that is an independent Scotland it is yet to be shown, and the lack of clarity on tax, currency etc doesn't help

 

You can continue peddling fear, but all industrialised countries that have gained independence are doing quite nicely, thank you. We are the most indebted of them all, with just about the lowest pensions in all of Europe. And you want us to stay like that. Well, it's "No Thanks" from me (and the big majority of those who voted on this poll) on that score.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can continue peddling fear, but all industrialised countries that have gained independence are doing quite nicely, thank you. We are the most indebted of them all, with just about the lowest pensions in all of Europe. And you want us to stay like that. Well, it's "No Thanks" from me (and the big majority of those who voted on this poll) on that score.

 

Its not continuing to peddle fear it is reality, companies will invest where they believe their cash is secure, which means in a country with a stable currency, known tax laws and rates, known import / export regs and costs.

 

The countries I can see that have went independent in the last 20 years in Europe, or recently joined the EU are

 

Czech Republic which had an established large manufacturing capacity and not high wages €900 a month and unemployment of 8%

Slovakia has excelled since the velvet revolution with a wage ave of €650 and an unemployment of 13%

Serbia was separated after the war and now has an average wage of €550 and unemployment level of 20%

Bosnia & Herzegovina again separated after the war in the Balkans has an average wage of €500 a month with an unemployment rate of 45%

Kosovo average wage €364 of with unemployment of 30% and 45% below the poverty line

Romania average wage of €685 with unemployment of 7%, due to the low wage and massive amount of universities (100,000 students in Cluj alone) lots of companies have moved there

 

Scotland average wage of €2400 a month with unemployment of 7%

 

All of these countries have higher unemployment than Scotland (Some frighteningly high) and significantly lower wages, all of these countries also got massive levels of investment from the EU, UN etc after they entered the EU or separated after a war, for a foreign company they are encouraged to go there by the EU and due to the ridiculous low labor costs, high level of education it is incredibly tempting.

 

All these countries were also ex communist states

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Still undecided ....................................... but personal attacks (regardless of who makes them) do not exactly enhance the quality of the debate - and let's be honest the quality of debate has been fairly tawdry up 'til now.

 

Selective acceptance of "expert" opinion/advice by both sides seems to frankly insult the "electorate" and much of the debate seems to centre on individual greed rather than the bigger picture of growing the "nation" (regardless of whether that "nation" is Scotland or the existing UK).

 

Did Politics years ago at Uni., suspect I might have had my fill of it then, because, to be honest, and without abdicating any civic responsibility, September 19th cannot come quick enough. :crazy::yawn::loco:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not continuing to peddle fear it is reality, companies will invest where they believe their cash is secure, which means in a country with a stable currency, known tax laws and rates, known import / export regs and costs.

 

The countries I can see that have went independent in the last 20 years in Europe, or recently joined the EU are

 

Czech Republic which had an established large manufacturing capacity and not high wages €900 a month and unemployment of 8%

Slovakia has excelled since the velvet revolution with a wage ave of €650 and an unemployment of 13%

Serbia was separated after the war and now has an average wage of €550 and unemployment level of 20%

Bosnia & Herzegovina again separated after the war in the Balkans has an average wage of €500 a month with an unemployment rate of 45%

Kosovo average wage €364 of with unemployment of 30% and 45% below the poverty line

Romania average wage of €685 with unemployment of 7%, due to the low wage and massive amount of universities (100,000 students in Cluj alone) lots of companies have moved there

 

Scotland average wage of €2400 a month with unemployment of 7%

 

All of these countries have higher unemployment than Scotland (Some frighteningly high) and significantly lower wages, all of these countries also got massive levels of investment from the EU, UN etc after they entered the EU or separated after a war, for a foreign company they are encouraged to go there by the EU and due to the ridiculous low labor costs, high level of education it is incredibly tempting.

 

All these countries were also ex communist states

Maybe those countries should give up their sovereignty to Westminster and join us over here in proudly waving our Union Flag in order to 'enjoy' the economic miracle delivered by Darling and Osbourne. Surrounded by food banks, driving through areas of abject poverty and living in a country that is about to 'boast' the lowest life expectancy in Western Europe (those pesky ex Communist countries are fair catching up with us on that one as well) will surely sell the benefits of Union to them! Westminter really delivers.....for some.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe those countries should give up their sovereignty to Westminster and join us over here in proudly waving our Union Flag in order to 'enjoy' the economic miracle delivered by Darling and Osbourne. Surrounded by food banks, driving through areas of abject poverty and living in a country that is about to 'boast' the lowest life expectancy in Western Europe (those pesky ex Communist countries are fair catching up with us on that one as well) will surely sell the benefits of Union to them! Westminter really delivers.....for some.

 

If you want to see REAL poverty go to some of these countries

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

All these countries were also ex communist states

 

Exactly, and none had the existing conditions or the natural resources that Scotland has. Did you read about the high levels of investment currently coming into Scotland? Investment of course is with an eye to the future. No real signs of uncertainty and hesitancy because of the prospect of independence there, I see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly, and none had the existing conditions or the natural resources that Scotland has. Did you read about the high levels of investment currently coming into Scotland? Investment of course is with an eye to the future. No real signs of uncertainty and hesitancy because of the prospect of independence there, I see.

 

Natural resources........ Romania and the black sea oil fields,

 

The levels of investment coming into Scotland is peanuts compared to what has came into these countries either directly from EEA / EU or private investment

Most of these countries were already set up for heavy serial manufacturing (The old communist way) whether steel, cars or components. They can compete with the rest of Europe due to the serious cheap wages.

A large sector of our manufacturing is tied to UK defense contracts, which we won't have when independent, so how do these companies survive?

The amount of people employed in oil & gas for the UK is actually quite low (Less than Norway by quite a bit), so how do we fill the gap in engineering when we are competing with the countries above on way cheaper wages without the help of UK companies who are forced to manufacture within the UK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Natural resources........ Romania and the black sea oil fields,

 

The levels of investment coming into Scotland is peanuts compared to what has came into these countries either directly from EEA / EU or private investment

Most of these countries were already set up for heavy serial manufacturing (The old communist way) whether steel, cars or components. They can compete with the rest of Europe due to the serious cheap wages.

A large sector of our manufacturing is tied to UK defense contracts, which we won't have when independent, so how do these companies survive?

The amount of people employed in oil & gas for the UK is actually quite low (Less than Norway by quite a bit), so how do we fill the gap in engineering when we are competing with the countries above on way cheaper wages without the help of UK companies who are forced to manufacture within the UK

 

If, as you claim, that 1) much of our manufacturing is dependent on UK defence contracts and 2) we won't have when independent, then it becomes clear that it is not a viable sector in any case, having been systematically reduced over decades to make it precisely dependent on a single source of funding, i.e., handouts from the Ministry of Defence and Westminster-approved contracts for foreign contracts. All it takes is for a potential customer to look elsewhere (France, the US, China etc.) and the UK sector is weakened more. That is a shocking state of affairs, and one that has been allowed (or engineered) by Westminster control. As for not having defence contracts as an independent country, you must surely be aware that millions of the UK's defence spending goes to foreign companies. The MoD themselves make this clear.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-16840170

 

So EU or private investment is fine for other countries, but would not benefit independent Scotland? How is it that all other countries benefit from independence but somehow Scotland won't?

 

Companies are like species, some will adapt and survive, others won't. That doesn't mean that the ecosystem itself will collapse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want to see REAL poverty go to some of these countries

 

I don’t WANT to see REAL poverty – I see it in work every day – in an ever increasing volume! I’d better get off to work now to see this illusory poverty that we have in Scotland – this is becoming like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch from Monty Python – remember that?

 

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:

Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 't gravel, work twenty hours a day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:

Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:

And you try and tell that to the young people of today ..... they won't believe you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If, as you claim, that 1) much of our manufacturing is dependent on UK defence contracts and 2) we won't have when independent, then it becomes clear that it is not a viable sector in any case, having been systematically reduced over decades to make it precisely dependent on a single source of funding, i.e., handouts from the Ministry of Defence and Westminster-approved contracts for foreign contracts. All it takes is for a potential customer to look elsewhere (France, the US, China etc.) and the UK sector is weakened more. That is a shocking state of affairs, and one that has been allowed (or engineered) by Westminster control. As for not having defence contracts as an independent country, you must surely be aware that millions of the UK's defence spending goes to foreign companies. The MoD themselves make this clear.

 

The majority of the spending goes to UK companies and that is a fact, the UK has never built a warship outwith the UK except during the 2nd world war, almost all aircraft were produced within the UK with the exception of the F35, C130 and Apache, all of which have the engines manufactured (Either whole or partial) in the UK, all are maintained at UK companies, how much money do you think a aeroengine overhaul brings in, whether military or civil? . How many Glasgow machine shops support the likes of Rolls-Royce in both civil & military business for aeroengine spares manufacture. How many Glasgow companies support BAE through either spares, tools or services.

The likes of Rolls or BAE arent going to set up 2 shops 1 in rUK that can do all (Civil & Military) and 1 in Scotland that can only do civil work, it doesn't make business sense, you lose flexibility on the workforce when civil takes a dip and military comes up or vice versa.

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...litics-16840170

 

So EU or private investment is fine for other countries, but would not benefit independent Scotland? How is it that all other countries benefit from independence but somehow Scotland won't? Scotland would need to get in the EU first for EU funding, and these private companies will put there money where they know they will make on it, if not in EU and with no established currency the risk is higher, nothing has yet been said as to how taxes, currency trade etc will work

 

Companies are like species, some will adapt and survive, others won't. That doesn't mean that the ecosystem itself will collapse

Scotland needs all the jobs going, the lack of clarity doesn't help, the vote now we will make it up later is a shambles and if you take the tartan specs of you will see that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t WANT to see REAL poverty – I see it in work every day – in an ever increasing volume! I’d better get off to work now to see this illusory poverty that we have in Scotland – this is becoming like the Four Yorkshiremen sketch from Monty Python – remember that?

 

 

 

I agree I don't want to see poverty, but it is there throughout the whole of the UK, all of Europe, even the great bastion of socialism that is Norway

 

The pretense that Scotland is more poor than the rest of the UK is a lie, every city in the UK (The world) has its rich, middle class, working class, poor people and the "Oh we are so hard done by England" line is embarrassing

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the bigger concern is the gap between rich and poor, something which, if the National Party control all tax revenues, will be tackled efficiently. England's right of centre policies have been damaging Scotland in this regard for decades.

 

Time to control our own tax revenues and redistribute wealth in a more socially responsible manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the bigger concern is the gap between rich and poor, something which, if the National Party control all tax revenues, will be tackled efficiently. England's right of centre policies have been damaging Scotland in this regard for decades.

 

Time to control our own tax revenues and redistribute wealth in a more socially responsible manner.

 

How do you do this without punishing success??

If someone was to work their way up the ladder, work hard, and move up the pay scale should they be severely taxed??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Severe taxation? Only failing economies need to resort to such measures. Success is to be encouraged and it will be in an independent Scotland. Succesful businesses and social justice should go hand in hand.

 

I agree but its difficult to do, where do you set the levels and at what rate so it is seen to be fair and encourage business and personnel success

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit of breathing space in the budget helps. Which it will do an independent Scotland. Which is the crux of the issue.

 

I don't recall seeing how it will in the white paper, are there tax breaks new levels being mentioned

 

The current level after personnel allowance of £9,440

 

20% £0 to £31,865

40% £31,866 to £150,000

50% over £150000 (up from 45%)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...